Rhonda Hamm-Niebruegge

Beth: Hello, welcome to ABC to CEO: Preparing for the Possibility Podcast. I'm Beth Chesterton. And today we have a very special guest. We have Rhonda Hamm-Niebruegge, who is the Executive Director of the St. Louis Lambert International Airport. Rhonda, first of all welcome. And tell us a little bit about your role that you've been in since 2010.

Rhonda: Well, good morning, nice to see you, Beth. And, yeah, so I've been the airport director here since January of 2010. And it is a very interesting role because it's like leading a city. So, everything involved in the airport falls under my responsibility, whether that is the planning of the airport, the day-to-day operational side, sort of our connectivity to the region, anything that you think about from an airport perspective falls under my domain.

We've got 550 employees that work directly for the airport that works for the city of St. Louis, and myself. And then the broader scope with all of our tenants and partners, here we have about 7000 employees. When I think about the asset that the airport is to our region, I think we play a critical role in moving this region forward. And so I take that very seriously, every day. And what I think about should be the best environment for the airport, and how we can be a partner in this community.

Beth: Our goal with ABC to CEO, our founder, Sharon Fiehler, who's a good friend of yours from your years of business in St. Louis, she founded ABC to CEO to prepare young women for the possibility of CEO, the possibility of being the leader. And this organization is a not-for-profit, with this mission in place. And we think you're the perfect person to help young women today.

Rhonda, you mentioned how many employees you have working for you, but you also have $190 million budget, serving 14.7 million passengers annually, that number may have changed. And this is an interesting number, and it may have changed also, with responsibility for 7 billion with a B dollars of impact for the region that you serve. I don't know if my numbers are right. But that's a major responsibility. Does that about hit it right?

Rhonda: Yeah, no, those numbers are very close. Yes.

Beth: Okay. So, you've had an incredible career. And it sounds like before 2010, you had 25 years in aviation at Trans World Airlines, TWA, as well as American Airlines and Ozark Airlines. And for those who are listening Trans World Airlines or TWA was the airline that every Pope took, every Hollywood star took. It had a first-class like you've never experienced it in your life. And even coach was amazing on TWA. TWA was it. It was a major and exciting airline for you to have your early career, wasn't it?

Rhonda: It was. When I started in this right out of college, never dreamed that ultimately, one day I would run the North American operations for an airline like TWA. But as my career morphed, and ultimately, I became the vice president for North American operations, I had a hundred airports under my responsibility within North America. For me, that was just like a dream come true. And I think about getting to that, but ultimately, even that responsibility and how it prepared me for the role that I'm in today. And I worked with airports all over the country because we served all of those cities at TWA, and those fell under my responsibility. I worked at a lot of different airports, got to learn a lot about how airports operate, and the type of leaders that airports have and those leaders that I like to work with, and those leaders that I didn't care to work with, but it really was a stepping stone to the career I have now.

Beth: Well, I think that's such a pivotal and important part of our conversation. I'd love to set the stage. Let's go back even earlier, and then we'll come to that role, which you describe is really a highlight in your career and a real pivotal moment. You started at Ozark Airline, as I understand, a Midwestern young girl who is going to LaGuardia, can you tell us about your first role?

Rhonda: Sure. I was graduating from college and I had looked for a different career path and was interviewing in that line of work. And all of a sudden, there was a job opportunity came and said, "We've got some openings at LaGuardia Airport." And Ozark was one of those companies that really hired from the Midwest. They were born and raised in the Midwest as a corporation, and that's the people that they wanted to hire. So I took the job and went to New York in a very preliminary role as a customer service agent working on a management trainee. I packed my bags one day and left to the big city the next week and really didn't have any connections or anyone there that I knew. But it was a fascinating time for me to really sort of fall in love with this industry.

Beth: I'm imagining you're in your early 20s, you're in New York, you're at LaGuardia, very exciting. And so what was your next role after that, was it still within Ozark?

Rhonda: So, Ozark, I started there in 1982, and TWA bought Ozark in 1986. So there was only about four years in that Ozark role. I had moved up very quickly there. I went from a customer service agent to a lead agent. And then actually, I became a customer service representative, which was a management position overseeing the contracts and stuff within Ozark for the agent environment. And that was the role I was in when we merged with TWA.

Beth: Okay, so this is an interesting thing because when we're talking to young women, a lot of times we're learning from CEOs and leaders like you that young women need experience with profit and loss, and to understand really how money is made in the business and so forth. So you're managing contracts at a very young age. Tell us a little bit about that aspect.

Rhonda: Yeah, it was. I mean, it was a wide-ranging role, which was great, because it brought me to the operational side, which I always found very fascinating, and which ultimately paid off in my career. But it also brought me into a little bit more of that financial side of the house and managing through contracts and helping understand negotiations of contracts. And it was one of those roles that had a lot of different sections to it. And it really, I think, was a good starting point for me to see what an exciting career this could be and the potential that was there for women.

Beth: And also imagine that you're involved in this acquisition, where your company is being acquired and I think how you behave and how you show yourself during an acquisition can really help you stand out from your peers. Looking back, and I know you don't like to brag, but can you think about what it is maybe that stood out for you, some feedback you got about, your performance in your 20s that stood out because ultimately, you get chosen to continue to be promoted and promoted. So you were doing something right. What do you think it was?

Rhonda: I volunteered for everything. I enjoyed my work. I clearly wanted to move up in the organization. After I got into this industry, I never thought about leaving it again, even though it wasn't the path I initially was going to take but it was fascinating for me. I was always out there asking, "What else can I do?" If there was a volunteer to head up any event that we were having or any extracurricular activity, I raised my hand and said, "I'll chair that. I'll do that." When it came time, even after four years, when TWA was purchasing Ozark, my name had been given to the TWA management leadership as, "This is a person you ought to watch. We think she's going to go places, and we think she's been very good for our organization."

So, I was fortunate in that even early on in those first four years of my career with Ozark, the management team, they are recognized some of the strengths I had and pushed my name forward to the TWA management as somebody that should be considered.

Beth: Okay, this is so exciting, because here you are, in your early career, four yours in being noticed, and I want young women who are listening to know that that is what's so important. You're raising your hand, and you are not waiting for somebody to tap you. And ultimately, later, which we're going to get to, one of your mentors suggested that it was a quality in you, fearlessness, I believe, or the ability to speak up that helped you be promoted in a pivotal way. Can you describe what's happening at TWA, you're there, you're in a role and you ultimately get promoted to the role that becomes this very big career highlight? Describe where you were before the promotion what happens and the promotion if you would.

Rhonda: Well, I had the benefit, as I said, my name had been moved forward. So I had the benefit of interviewing with some of the leadership team on the airport operational side. And after talking with them, I did get an offer from TWA. And it was a little bit of a step back for me, from where I had promoted up to within Ozark. I thought things were going really well, so I had asked the gentleman at the time who was leading all of the North American operations. I had said to him, "I'm grateful to have an offer, but I was a little disappointed that it wasn't a higher management role." And he said to me at the time, he said, "Rhonda, you've been in this industry four years, Ozark was a small company. This is a big company. We just need to see who you are in our environment. I had no doubt you're going to do well." I took that and thought, "Okay, should I take the job and take a step back?" And ultimately, I decided it was the right decision.

And, of course, it's one of those things that I think was a pivotal change in my career, because it was my reaction. I did step up and spoke to the gentleman at the time that was running the North American and said to him, "I was hoping for a higher capacity." Even at that point, I felt like, I didn't need to take a step back. And it wasn't a big step back but it was a little lesser of a role than I had at Ozark. And I think that really set the stage for, this is a person who knows what she wants, this is a person who is going to go for what she wants and this is somebody that can be a real value to our team. And at the time, there really weren't any women in leadership roles within airport operations. There were in other capacities on the flight attendant side or the reservation side, but really not in the airport operations, which is what I liked. I liked that thrill of the operational side.

Beth: Well, on the operational side is a really important side for young women to get to know in an organization to get ahead and to go up and you were moving in an area where women might not have typically been directed, and you stepped in there. And then I love that you said that to the leader. And I think he's ultimately who ended up promoting you. But you showed yourself, that took confidence. Did you muster the confidence up at that time or did it come naturally to you to say that?

Rhonda: I think it came natural to me. I was never hesitant to speak my mind. I grew up with all brothers, I had no sisters, and so I competed with them in everything. So, they groomed me well to be my own person and to speak up. But I thought, how am I going to know if I don't ask? What do I need to do to better myself to keep promoting? And that was really sort of my purpose for understanding it. And it never dawned on me that it was inappropriate, or that it was arrogant to ask, it was just more of, I need to know what I need to do to keep bettering myself. I didn't have to muster up the strength to do it. It just was natural to me.

Beth: Well, I think one of the things we can do is when we see someone who's doing something that worked that we can emulate that. So, that's where role models come in, "Okay, I may not feel that confidence, but I can do what Rhonda did, and have a conversation and ask." And we have learned from a lot of our CEOs, like you, that sometimes you're going up sideways and it's not always a direct path straight to the top. But it was important to know. So, let's go now. You have this role. And what happens ultimately, when you get your promotion?

Rhonda: I was also married and we were starting a family. And by that time, TWA, the hub was located here in St. Louis, and I relocated back to St. Louis. And it was interesting because there is really three key roles at the hub, you have the individual that runs the hub, and then you have the departments broke between ramp service and passenger services. And those roles were very cherished roles in the industry. And the manager for the passenger services was coming open, that gentleman was retiring after many years. And the individual that had interviewed me early on before that had called me into his office, and he said, "The manager for passenger services role is going to open up. Are you interested in that?" And I said, "Well, I'm not sure. Should I be?" And at the time, I was about seven months pregnant. And I said to him, "I'm obviously expecting," and he said, "I can't answer that question, only you can." But I went home and I said to my husband because I never thought I would be considered for that role, quite honestly because, again, it was still fairly early in my career, people who have looked for those roles had been working 15, 20 years in line for the succession for those. And he's asking me if I was going to raise my hand for that role. I said to my husband, "I'm going to raise my hand. He thinks I can do it, I think. I'm going to raise my hand."

I put in for that role. And ultimately, I got it. I think it was that next step of confidence that I needed but at the same time, it was me reaching out saying, "I can do this, I can do this." I think it was a disappointment for some that had been in succession planning for a long time grooming for that role that, that I was able to take it but again, I think, it's he saw something in me that he thought was the leader he wanted to be able to put into that role and make a difference in this operation.

Beth: And it really does come down and that's where young women need to understand this. People are making these decisions. People are noticing and seeing something and having relationships where he obviously trusted you and thought you had the ability to do it. And there are a lot of statistics to talk about how young women will often wait until they're 80% prepared for a new position, whereas their male counterparts might be more comfortable raising their hand at 20% prepared, so we're encouraging women, raise your hand before you're fully prepared, go for it sooner which it sounds like you were early in your career, and you still had the confidence. And really, you had, obviously, some good natural instincts in business, because it ultimately paid off.

Rhonda: I think as I moved up in my career, that's one of the things. I don't think I was ever 80% prepared for any of the roles I took, even in this role. I knew that I had a strong background, I knew that I had a strong work ethic, I knew that I had a commitment to what I was doing. But I always knew there was going to be a learning curve as well. And I wasn't scared of that. And I asked questions if I don't know something, I don't think I'm this dumb one in the room. I'll ask the question where I think a lot of people don't feel comfortable asking those questions. If I don't know the answer to something, I'm the first to raise my hand and say, "Okay, what about this? Help me understand this." I think that also played very well in my career because I wasn't afraid to ask.

Beth: So funny that you say that, I'm going to send you a clip of another CEO, Jenny Johnson, who is the CEO of Franklin Templeton, she said the same thing, almost verbatim to you. And I think that young women need to hear this. Asking the questions, making sure you know, is one of the characteristics that CEO shares that being afraid to ask. Rhonda, thinking of you, I'm imagining you at this young age, you're in meetings where there have to be senior leaders above you. And you have to be sitting in these meetings, and we talk a lot about taking a seat at the table. And when you were not the peer, you're just coming up, and when you spoke up or how you contributed to the meeting, can you remember those days where you were looking up at all these sorts of superstars in the organization and a meeting and what was it like?

Rhonda: I do remember very well actually. And I remember thinking, "Okay, I need to participate." I listened. I took everything in and I listened. But I also wanted to participate. I wanted to make sure that they knew that I was at the table and that I wasn't just on the sidelines. So I remember, I would sit there thinking, "Okay, what question can I ask that's going to have the biggest impact?" So I would, in my mind, sort of rehearse a couple of times, whatever the conversation may have been, whether it was financial, whether it was operational, whether it was strategic, it didn't matter. I would sit there, and as I'm listening to the questions, I would think about the questions that I wanted to ask so that I could get a good question out there on the table. And I did, and I always would find the appropriate time when they were there was a lull or I felt like someone was glancing around looking in the room saying, "Is anybody have any questions to ask?" And I would find that right opportune time. And I would raise my hand and say, "I have a question."

For me, it was more about being at the table, making sure that I wasn't just sitting there on the sidelines. But I was participating, and I think that played into everyone's viewpoint, this is someone who really deeply cares about the organization and wants to learn about the organization but is asking the right questions, asking those questions that matter, asking those questions that can really show that there's a dedication and a desire to learn more about the in-depthness of this company and who we are as a company. And so I don't think I ever sat in a meeting where I didn't ask at least two questions of the day. I would look around sometimes at those around me, and not everybody ask questions. And many of them when you're in a room with very powerful leaders, especially-- in those days, I can tell you, they were all men. I don't remember really sitting at the table with females in those early days of my career. Those were mostly meetings where they were all men. It even got to the point a couple of times where someone said, "All right, Rhonda, we know you have a question, go ahead," [laughs] because they knew that I was going to ask one. So, it kind of became a little bit of a joke.

Beth: I think this is amazing. I can't wait for young women to hear you say that because it's one thing to get invited to the meeting, and it's next thing to then participate, and how do you participate in a way that's helpful and helps you be noticed and help move the conversation forward in an interesting way. So that's excellent advice. Looking at your career, and as any leader who's responsible for $7 billion of impact, you have had so many external factors that impact your business and your operation. The tornado of 2011, you're one year into your role in this position, and can you tell us a little bit about that tornado? I really think of this in the category of adversity, and how you show what you're made of during times of adversity. And by this point, you've already proven yourself, but you're in your new role. Tell us about that. What happened?

Rhonda: Well, I think that it was a little bit of a pivotal role as I came in the year prior. When I started really engaging in the community, helping the community to understand what had happened in this industry, I felt how strong of resentment there was at the time toward the airport and the downsizing of the hub. And I guess I was a little bit taken aback; I didn't realize how disengaged the airport had been with the community. So that first year I was out all the time, working with various businesses and organizations and leaders in the community talking about a plan and thinking about we have to have partnerships here, I can't do this on my own, we need to think about what's right for the community. So, when the tornado hit that Friday night on Good Friday in 2011, we were at dinner, my husband and I were at dinner with some other couples, and took me about seven minutes to get here after the tornado hit. And on the way here, my phone was ringing off the wall with other CEOs in town saying, "Rhonda, what do you need? You tell us what you need, we're there to help." And I think can I not spend that year before that really engaging with the community, and helping them to understand the kind of partnerships that we needed in order to move this airport forward, it wouldn't have been as easy as it was.

By the time I got to the airport, look like I said, which was 10 minutes after the tornado. When I walked down, I expected to see based on what I saw from the outside, I expected it to be just a chaotic scene. And it wasn't. It was very organized. People had moved into their roles, they knew exactly what to do. I felt at that point that my role really was to be the face of the airport and to tell the public what was going on. And to make sure that people knew hour by hour what we were doing and what we needed to reopen this airport. So, pulled the team together really quickly and said, "We're going to go live with some broadcast here in the next hour. I need to know everything that's down, everything that we need to pull together." And so I had a really strong operational team. And they came in, and then at the time I said to the mayor, "We're going to be very upfront with the public about where the damage is, how much there is, but how we're going to try to pull this together."

Along the way, even the CEO for Ameren at the time, it was Tom Voss had called and said, "Rhonda, what do you need because Ameren, obviously, we rely on so heavily out here." And I said, "I need this power back on. We have to have power at this airport." Even though we had backup generators and stuff, we knew getting back power. So, he came out here, he was by the side, he was in some of those press conferences with us talking about what they were doing. We had truckloads of plywood pulling up, we had truckloads of food pulling up, we had dumpsters pulling up. I mean, it was just this outpouring, but we were able to reopen this airport, within literally, the next day was 70% of our operations by that Sunday, and 100% by that Tuesday, and it was because of the strength of everybody pulling together.

One of the things that I believe very strongly in is that you've got to get out in front of people, you can't hide. If there's a disaster, if there's something that's not positive going on within your organization, you have to be out there, they have to see the leaders, they have to know who you are. You're telling people the truth of what's going on. Families coming in from the holiday weekend and people were like, "What are we supposed to do? Should I tell my family not to come?" Planes are diverted, there were just a lot of things going on. And I think I became a little bit of that calming sense of people. At least that's what people told me afterward is that every two hours, we did these updates all throughout the night on. "Here's where we're at, here's what we need, here's what's happening." And so people had a sense that it was organized and there was leadership at the table. And I was able to do that because I had a strong operational team that I knew was feeding me the proper information to share.

Beth: We have 17 traits that we've identified that are associated with highly effective CEOs. And there are so many that you're illuminating here. One of them is the ability to communicate and to even keep people feeling safe when everything is so chaotic and upside down. This tornado was two minutes in length. And how did they quantify the level of the tornado?

Rhonda: It was a level four and did about $35 million of damage in two minutes.

Beth: And it was dramatic. And the way you handled it and the calm, the ability to help create a sense of calm in the middle of the chaos is remarkable. People really do trust the leader and trust you for that. So, that was a really important moment. As a woman, CEO, I want to ask you, what are some of the pitfalls or advice you might have for women that you see women fall into or something you would like young women to avoid? Or, contrarily, something that you think would really help young women and their ability to advance?

Rhonda: I think my first advice would be, don't ever expect that a job is yours. I don't think that any job is mine or yours or anyone's. I think you have to earn that. I think sometimes I see young women going in thinking, "Well, I should have that," because not, "What can I do to earn that?" And I think that's a distinction people need to make. If you really want to move up in an organization and you want to get noticed, earn that. Make sure that you're raising your hand, make sure that you're volunteering, make sure that when it's 5 o'clock, you're not looking at the clock going out the door. I mean, those are types of things that people respect and people will look for. Don't ever think that job should be given to you because you're a female. Earn that job, I always tell people that.

And then the other thing I would say is just, I think some women get caught in that, "Can I be a good mother, and can I also be a good CEO?" We had three children, my husband and I both work, it was something we chose to do together. We made a choice that we both wanted careers but we also wanted a family, but have those discussions on your personal life. I think, to be a really good leader, you also have to have a good personal life. I think you need to make sure that you can set the expectations of what you can and can't do. And maybe you cannot be at school, for every party that goes on at school, but where you can, you make those times special, and you do things in free time on your weekend or in the evenings that can make up for some of that. I think you shouldn't have to choose between a career and a family. If you want both, you can sit down and do that. But you have to chart, I think, a path forward with your partner that says this is what it's going to take.

I look at my three children today, they're grown, they're raising their own families, and they're all working. In the case of my son, his wife is working as well, and they've done the same thing because I think that it can be done. But it's one of those things that, again, it takes some effort and it takes communication.

Beth: I'm certain you're very thrilled by the work you're doing. How do you recharge your battery?

Rhonda: My husband and I have a farm about an hour and a half outside of St. Louis. So, we go there to relax a lot. It's a very relaxing place. I also enjoy antiquing. Both of us love antiques, we love old things, we live in a house that was built in 1910. So, I like to go out and see historic things. I like to go out and just go through antique shops, and not even with the purpose of buying anything, just really appreciating the history and when furniture was made and the different styles of furniture. So, to me, that's relaxing. We also love to entertain. We love to have people over for dinner. So, those are really the things that sort of recharge my battery along with the grandkids.

Beth: Okay, fantastic. Young women have a hard time seeing themselves in the role of CEO. Part of our job in our organization is to help to inspire them to want to go for it, we can have young women who've been so successful in their educational careers, who would say, "Oh, I've never imagined myself as a CEO. And so I'm always interested because the people who are in your position, the women and men seem to really enjoy it. It's challenging, yes, and there's a lot of pressure, but there's also a thrill of being able to have an impact. First of all, what surprises you and your role as CEO? And what are the exciting roles of being the executive director of an operation that has such impact as you have?

Rhonda: Well, I think you're absolutely right, you do love it. It's the reason that I come to work every day. I love what I do. And I think I like it, and the reason that I'm so passionate about it is because I know it does have an impact in this community. I know that if this airport is better, this community, this region can be better. So, again, we're an employer of almost 7000 people here when we look at all of our partners out here. So, I think about the impact and the jobs that we can bring to people. But I really think about it's the face of this region, it's the first thing people see when they come in and the last thing that they see when they exit. So being able to make it the best that it can possibly be, being able to find those partnerships within the community and within the region to say, "What do you want for our airport? How can we make it the best?"

At the end of the day, when I go home, I just feel like, "Oh, my God, we got through another day. And look, we did X, Y, and Z." I think when I leave this role, and I hang those lights out and say, "It's time," I've been here 13 years. So, whatever, however long that may be, I think I'll be able to look back and say, "I had a real impact in this city. I had a real impact in how this region moved forward." I don't know who wouldn't be proud to do that.

Beth: I agree with you. And I would say, Rhonda, with you, one of your great strengths is partnering. And I think interestingly, the international partnerships that you've developed are very exciting as well. Your ability to see possibilities and how you can create win-win partnerships is one of your great strengths. I'm certain that you've been acknowledged for that throughout your career, is that true?

Rhonda: I have, and I think probably the best example of the two would be the tornado where forming all those partnerships and people came to the table and said, "What do you need? Just tell me what you need." And I wasn't shy to ask. I think the second one came in our recent success of getting the Lufthansa flight nonstop back here to St. Louis from Germany. And I've been talking to the region for a while and said, "This industry has changed so dramatic." What they're looking for, because we're not a mega-region of 10 or 20 million people, what they're looking for, is to know that there's support in this community for this flight. So, going out and talking to some of the CEOs in town saying, "If we really want this, this is what we're going to need to do to put a package together." And they listened and they said, "Then that's what we're going to do. You tell me what package you need and we're going to find a way to make it work."

So, we were able through the Greater St. Louis, Inc and through the Economic Development Partnership to bring a package to the table that was supported by the business community to help in those first two critical years of a new startup, especially an international startup. And Lufthansa saw that. I mean, we've been working with a number of international carriers, but Lufthansa saw that string. And then being able to bring them, Lufthansa executives into the community to meet our executives to really pull together, we're going to make this work and to see the desire of this community to have that international service back. And so, I think that was a great example of another partnership. And have we not reached out, as the airport, to form that to really say, "If you want this, this is how we can do it together, "that would have never happened.

Beth: It's a really important testament to your ability to look forward. And I think this is really important because when there's a change in organizations, and the world is changing, it's such a right now that leaders really stand apart when they're looking forward, rather than lamenting what was. And that is your great ability and keen ability to see, "Oh, there's an opportunity, we can create a partnership that will help everybody, but we're going to have to all band together to do it. It's focus, your ability to focus on what you want and innovate and adapt. And those are some of our traits and characteristics of highly effective CEOs.

I, for one plan on supporting that exact route to the best of my abilities. I have a daughter right now who's in Germany. So, we're looking forward to taking advantage of that direct flight that you've created and worked so tirelessly to make happen for both the Europeans and for us here. And so I just thank you so much for taking the time. Hopefully, Rhonda, you have a great day, I'm sure you've got a lot going on. But we really appreciate you're taking the time and I know you're going to help young women everywhere, and we will be in touch with you soon. Thanks for today.

Rhonda: Thank you, Beth.

Rhonda is the Executive Director of St. Louis Lambert International Airport responsible for $7 billion in impact on the region with revenues of more than $183 million and serving nearly 16 million passengers annually.

As a proven leader with a track record for extreme success and transformational impact, there is much to learn from Rhonda. In this episode, she shares keys to her early success — behaviors and mindsets with ground-breaking results— Rhonda was the first woman in aviation to lead operations for an airline as expansive as TWA North America where she served as  Vice President of TWA’s North American Operations, responsible for an $800 million budget overseeing 100 airports and 8,000 TWA employees.

Rhonda currently serves as chairperson on the Airport Oversight Committee of the Airport Cooperative Research Program, a research program supported by the FAA. She formerly served on the National Freight Advisory Committee, an advisory board serving the U.S. Department of Transportation. She is currently serving as chair of the board of Christian Hospital (BJC HealthCare) and a board member for BJC. She also serves as a board member for several other organizations. She’s the former Chairperson of the Advisory Board of John Cook School of Business.